Legislature(2001 - 2002)
03/07/2002 08:05 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 498-WHITTIER PRIVATE PRISON Number 0220 CHAIR COGHILL announced the first order of business, HOUSE BILL NO. 498, "An Act expressing legislative intent regarding privately operated correctional facility space and services; relating to the development and financing of privately operated correctional facility space and services; authorizing the Department of Corrections to enter into an agreement for the confinement and care of prisoners in privately operated correctional facility space; and providing for an effective date." CHAIR COGHILL explained that public testimony was closed and that the discussion would take place among committee members. He then mentioned two considerations regarding HB 498: "sole sourcing at Whittier," and "private versus public." He also referred to similar [bills] by the administration and Senator Lyda Green; he offered his understanding that the scope of the bill proposed by the Senate would include prisons in various communities across the state, which is similar to the plan by the administration. Number 0375 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES asked whether [HB 498] would simply authorize the state to negotiate this issue. CHAIR COGHILL replied that it is permissive, but is also a directive because it says the legislature expects the Department of Corrections to contract with the City of Whittier. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES remarked that she sees a similarity between [HB 498] and her own HB 244, which had drawn complaints that it was "sole source." She said that wasn't the case because a right-of-way doesn't involve a state RFP [request for proposals]. She also said the sole-source issue [for HB 498] isn't an issue, from her perspective, because the "sole source" was the request put out by the City of Whittier. This legislation would just authorize negotiation between the state and Whittier to "see whether they would sell bonds to finance this issue." She added that there would have to be a contract. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES also offered her suspicion that "there is some little glimmer in there that if the state wanted to enter into a contract with anybody, they probably could - but, knowing how the government works, they never would." She said it seems that whether or not a private prison is the thing to do, the "City of Whittier folks have done their due diligence" and are asking for this [legislation]. She mentioned "the Delta idea" and "the Kenai idea" as previous [recipients of legislative support]. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES brought up the issue of private versus state-operated prisons. Personally, she said, she would like to see private prisons succeed, though she doesn't know if they can or will, because what exists now is not currently working as she would like to see it work. Representative James compared the issue to that of the public schools: should every child be made to go to public school, or should there be options? Regarding prisons, she mentioned her preference for an option that would work better, be less expensive, and reduce recidivism. Number 0749 REPRESENTATIVE WILSON noted that the council on state government fiscal affairs committee had done extensive study regarding private prisons. Reading that, she said, brought to her attention that many times problems are in regard to the contract between the state and the prison. She suggested the state has to be diligent with what it oversees and puts in the contract. She mentioned concerns that [prisoners] will be treated fairly and that rehabilitation efforts will be made. Recalling that Representative Fate had perhaps mentioned that "Fairbanks was interested," she asked whether that meant he would be [offering] an amendment. She said she would like to move out [HB 498]. Number 0927 CHAIR COGHILL suggested the finance questions would be difficult to answer. He asked members to consider whether Whittier should be allowed the opportunity, now that it has come forward with the bid. Noting that the words of a previous testifier had made him question the size of [the facility], he told members he would be open to discussing that topic. Number 0984 REPRESENTATIVE FATE clarified that his own discussion had been in regard to the specific demands in the bill that the City of Whittier be the location [for the prison]. He read two examples [from page 1, lines 11-12, and page 2, lines 21-22]. He noted that other areas are interested in [having a prison]. He mentioned prior testimony regarding lack of infrastructure, high construction costs, tsunami and avalanche safety issues, and the "cultural aspect." Recalling testimony from the Alaska Native Brotherhood (ANB) about social reinforcement, he emphasized that it is really the family, as much as the facility itself, that "heals these people and gets them over the hump - gets them back into society." He said although he believes the ANB has a camp in Anchorage, its main thrust is in Southeast Alaska. He noted that there had been no other mention of cultural activity with any other Native group. He remarked, "I think that this ... is an absolute necessity in a medium-security institution." He indicated the length of the trip [to Whittier] for visitation would be difficult from all over the state, even from Anchorage. REPRESENTATIVE FATE allowed that Whittier had "stepped up to the plate," but said that alone didn't make it the right place [for a prison]. He conceded that the people of Whittier have done a good job and need the [economic stimulus], and that the tunnel is in need of [use]; however, Representative Fate said he isn't sure this [legislation] is the way to achieve those aims. He concluded, "Mr. Chairman, if you want to move this out and have a vote on it, that's fine, but I think you're making a mistake." Number 1285 CHAIR COGHILL indicated that after visiting some prisons in Idaho and Arizona, he'd thought [a prison in Whittier] would be as accessible from Anchorage as [those prisons] are from major cities. He said he appreciated the rest of Representative Fate's comments. Number 1306 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS noted that this has been a difficult issue for everyone. He said thinks the overriding issue is that [Alaska] has 800 prisoners in Arizona and is spending enormous amounts of money [to keep them there]. He mentioned having read a study done several years ago on privatization, which touted looking at ways to privatize various areas of government to save money; he said this made sense. He noted that [HB 498] gives the opportunity of looking at that, and said he thinks it is important to do that. He remarked that the bill would authorize the state to begin negotiations. REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS told members he was impressed with the testimony [at the previous hearing] from [Mr. Katzeek] of the ANB regarding the importance of returning prisoners to Alaska to be closer to their relatives. He highlighted the easy access [of Whittier] to Anchorage, and noted that [prisoners] can be taken to Whittier at less expense than flying them to Arizona. REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS offered that the location is key. He noted that neither Delta nor Kenai had worked out, but that Whittier is willing to have [the prison] in its community. He said he thinks the impact on the community could be enormous in terms of jobs and construction. He said it makes sense to continue this discussion, but in the House Finance Committee. He spoke in favor of moving HB 498 out of committee. Number 1460 REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD told members he believes a 1,200-bed prison is a mistake for a number of reasons. Foremost is that regional prisons and jail space are needed across Alaska, and building a facility in Whittier would preclude building any other jail or prison space. He said, "They've testified numerous times that ... you don't have the economies of scale with a smaller, regional prison, but there are other factors that we need to consider, [such as] when people have to be tried in the area that they were charged in." He said he thinks regional prisons are needed in places such as Bethel and Southeast Alaska. REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD referred to [page 2, lines 8-9, regarding the average per diem rate] and read, "should be approximately $89 to $91 in current dollars." He said it is vague and perhaps was written that way on purpose. He also suggested page 2, lines 19-21, is vague; it read, "for profit or nonprofit third-party contractors construct and operate the facility by providing for custody, care, and discipline services for persons committed to the custody of the commissioner of corrections under authority of state law." He explained, "Under that, I believe that they could actually bring prisoners from out of state to a private prison, to make sure that that facility was full." He said he had many questions about [HB 498] and didn't see the great hurry in moving it onward. Number 1634 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES noted that when figuring the cost of having a prisoner, the operating cost is counted rather than the capital cost. In this particular case of having a private prison, the amount charged has to include the capital costs, however, because "people have to pay for what they did." Clarifying that she wasn't saying "privately is the best way to do things," Representative James suggested the need to weigh the cost with the achievements. She said she'd like to see better prison management and ideas to reform people. Prison is not entirely punitive, she added, emphasizing that making any big change in government is difficult. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES mentioned trying to match revenues with expenses. She said there are huge needs, such as prisons and schools, that have gone unmet for a considerable time. Noting that she is embarrassed by some of the schools that children have to go to, she remarked, "If we're ever going to reduce the people in prison, we need to do better at the other end." Representative James said she isn't really interested in issuing bonds to build more prisons, but would rather have a contract [that sets a price] so it doesn't grow exponentially over the years. She noted the big argument over "private versus public," and said she comes down "a bit on the private side." She reiterated that this bill just allows the prison to happen, rather than making it happen. Number 1859 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES moved to report HB 498 out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. REPRESENTATIVE FATE objected. A roll call vote was taken. Representatives James, Stevens, Wilson, and Coghill voted to move HB 498 from committee. Representatives Crawford and Fate voted against it. Therefore, HB 498 was moved out of the House State Affairs Standing Committee by a vote of 4-2.
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